Hola amigos, un saludo a todos.
¿Sabéis si existe algún texto en castellano sobre la historia o el origen de la espada ropera?
Un saludo
Historia de la ropera
Moderadores: Rorro González, Carlos Urgel (Cat), Marc Gener
-
Iñigo Montoya
- Mensajes: 3
- Registrado: Mié Abr 07, 2004 4:23 pm
- Ubicación: Valencia
-
Marc Gener
- Madrid
- Mensajes: 1509
- Registrado: Lun Jun 02, 2003 5:44 pm
- Ubicación: Madrid
Bueno, para empezar a hacer boca, tienes un artículo al respecto en en esta misma web.
Marc
"Living and trying to learn"
--------------------------------------------------
"...si com l'arnès d'acer a colp s'engruna
e lo de ferr hun petit colp lo passa,
quan són units no-ls destru res llur massa..."
"Living and trying to learn"
--------------------------------------------------
"...si com l'arnès d'acer a colp s'engruna
e lo de ferr hun petit colp lo passa,
quan són units no-ls destru res llur massa..."
-
Iñigo Montoya
- Mensajes: 3
- Registrado: Mié Abr 07, 2004 4:23 pm
- Ubicación: Valencia
Ah, que interesante. Y ¿dónde epuedo encontrar ese artículo?Marc G. escribió:Bueno, para empezar a hacer boca, tienes un artículo al respecto en en esta misma web.
Perdón, pero soy un poco nuevo en esto...
Gracias
-
Manuel Turrado
- Mensajes: 296
- Registrado: Lun May 10, 2004 7:30 pm
- Ubicación: Sevilla. España
- Contactar:
articulo ropera
http://www.esgrimaantigua.com/ArmasRopera.php
Y en relacion a esto
The Styles of Swordplay
by Lord Simon fitz Tomas
During the 16th and 17th centuries in Europe, several different styles of
sword fighting existed. The times and customs made the sword and swordplay
almost common place. Schools and fraternities dedicated to the study of fencing
sprang up all over Europe. Vast distances, both physical and political, made
the spread of knowledge slow throughout the whole of Europe and so different
styles of fighting developed in each country. Knowledge slowly spread and by
the middle of the seventeenth century there were basically five styles of
fencing. They are: the Old style, the Spanish style, the Italian style, the
German style, and the French style. We will briefly examine each of them in
turn.
The Old style was the basis of all other fencing styles. It was what
remained of medieval sword fighting techniques. The weapons of this style were
the dagger, the cutlass, the long sword, the 'hand-and-a-half' or 'bastard'
sword, and the two-handed sword. The only defensive item employed with this
style was the buckler, a small round shield that was held in the fighter's off
hand. The Old style developed from the medieval arts of war with a single sword
or a sword and shield. Using wider and heavier swords than the rapier, the Old
style depended more upon physical strength than upon dexterity or finesse. It
used a combination of attacks with the sharp edge of the blade (slashes),
attacks with the flat of the blade (strikes), and attacks with the point of the
blade (thrusts).
The Old style endured the longest in England. This is due, in part, to
two factors that influenced the English strongly in the art of sword fighting:
a book and a law. In 1599, a mercenary named George Silver wrote and published
a book on sword fighting entitled Paradoxes of Defense. This book is a tirade
against the rapier and foreign styles. It must have been well received by its
audience since prior to this book's publication a law was written limiting the
length of rapiers that were allowed on English soil. There is a case of a
foreign diplomat running afoul of this law and having his blades broken to the
proper length by the English authorities. Yet we cannot condemn the English for
being non progressive as there were foreign fencing schools and masters teaching
the other styles to any Englishman willing to learn.
The Spanish style was probably the first solid fencing style to develop
from the Old style. Built upon medieval sword fighting techniques, it relied
heavily upon almost full arm extension and footwork to keep the opponent at a
set distance. The weapons utilized by the Spanish style were the long sword and
the rapier. The style used no defensive tools; a single blade served as both
offense and defense. It depended upon quick movements and used both the slash
and the thrust as attacks. The slash was the stronger of the two attacks due to
the distance kept between opponents.
The Spanish style has been described as "a complicated and mystical
affair" due to its extensive use of geometry and its complicated "circle of
defense" referenced by a French student of the style named Thibault. It is
believed that the Spanish style developed from the teachings of alchemy that
stressed perfection of the human form in all things. The difficulty in
mastering the style, combined with the rigid laws and customs regarding dueling
in Spain, meant that sword fighting did not become as popular in Spain as it did
in the rest of Europe. Spanish sword masters and Italian merchants brought the
Spanish style of fencing to Italy. The Italians incorporated some of the
elements of the Spanish style into the style that they were developing.
The Italian style developed shortly after the Spanish style. It
concentrated on the physical and mechanical points of swordplay, such as
presenting the smallest possible target to the opponent and always keeping the
tip of the blade pointed at the opponent. The weapons used in this style were
the long sword, the rapier, and the foil, a long and thin blade with a sharp
point and no edge. The defensive items utilized in the Italian style were the
buckler and the baton, a cane like stick held in the off hand and used for
parrying. Additionally, the Italians innovated the art of sword fighting by
introducing the integration of attack and defense in both hands. This
innovation was called Florentine fighting, after the city of its birth. Thus
swordsmen using the Italian style often carried a dagger for use in their off
hand. Some fought with two long blades. This style used two types of attacks:
the thrust and the lunge. The lunge was another invention of the Italians,
although at first it was basically just a running thrust.
The Italian style is the best documented of all of the styles, as
instructional texts still exist written by such masters as DiGrassi, Agrippa,
and Capo Ferro. The Italian style spread throughout Europe and influenced all
of the other styles. The French style developed almost completely out of it.
Additionally, the tenets of the Italian style are also, in a large part, the
basis of modern epee and foil fencing.
The German style was developed in Germany and Eastern Europe (The Holy
Roman Empire) at the same time the Italian style was being developed. Owing its
origins to the Old style, the German style used a viscious system of slashes and
cuts aimed at the upper torso and a box like system of parries. These attacks
and defenses were based upon the moves that a man fighting from horseback would
use. The weapons of the German style were long sword and saber. No defensive
items were used in this style, although woodcuts would indicate that a secondary
weapon, a sword or a dagger, was sometimes used. The style utilized three types
of attacks: the slash, the strike, and the cut, a fast attack somewhere between
a shallow thrust and a short slash.
Numerous German fencing texts from the period still exist. The style
influenced cavalry fighting and sword fighting in warfare, such as it was in the
period, throughout Europe. Much like the Spanish style, the German style
emphasized keeping the opponent at a set distance. The style was spread across
Europe by the landsneckt mercenaries. Finally, the modern techniques for saber
fighting owe their beginnings to the German style.
The French style was the last to develop and was truly a synthesis of the
best the other styles had to offer. This style stressed the use of strategy and
thinking in combat to make every factor count for you and against your opponent.
The style fully incorporated the Florentine method and combatants used long
swords, foils, and rapiers for weapons. Defensive secondary items could be
nearly anything: a dagger, a buckler, a baton, a cloak, a hat, a mug, a chair,
etc. One of the most common secondaries was the dagger. A long daggers was
developed for this purpose and took on a name of its own: the main gauche or
left hand. The French style had three types of attacks: slashes, thrusts, and
lunges.
In 1573, Henri Sainct Didier published the first book on the art of
swordsmanship ever written in French. He is held by the French to be "father of
their national science of arms", however his work is largely derivative of di
Grassi and other Italian masters. The French style eventually achieved
dominance over the other styles in the late 17th century. Today, it is the
style of sword fighting that people identify with the rapier and The Three
Musketeers. This is largely due to Hollywood of course. However, by the end of
the 17th century, Paris was the home of numerous fencing schools.
By the 18th century fencing had basically begun to devolve into simply a
sport. While duels still occurred in some places, more and more they were being
fought with pistols instead of swords. For nearly all people the five distinct
styles of swordplay that once existed in Europe have degenerated over time into
only a general idea that once people fought with swords. Today, only a very few
talented people keep the noble spirit and active study of classical fencing
alive. In a future article I will describe some period duels as well as try to
give you a feeling of what it is like to cross swords.
Saludos
Y en relacion a esto
The Styles of Swordplay
by Lord Simon fitz Tomas
During the 16th and 17th centuries in Europe, several different styles of
sword fighting existed. The times and customs made the sword and swordplay
almost common place. Schools and fraternities dedicated to the study of fencing
sprang up all over Europe. Vast distances, both physical and political, made
the spread of knowledge slow throughout the whole of Europe and so different
styles of fighting developed in each country. Knowledge slowly spread and by
the middle of the seventeenth century there were basically five styles of
fencing. They are: the Old style, the Spanish style, the Italian style, the
German style, and the French style. We will briefly examine each of them in
turn.
The Old style was the basis of all other fencing styles. It was what
remained of medieval sword fighting techniques. The weapons of this style were
the dagger, the cutlass, the long sword, the 'hand-and-a-half' or 'bastard'
sword, and the two-handed sword. The only defensive item employed with this
style was the buckler, a small round shield that was held in the fighter's off
hand. The Old style developed from the medieval arts of war with a single sword
or a sword and shield. Using wider and heavier swords than the rapier, the Old
style depended more upon physical strength than upon dexterity or finesse. It
used a combination of attacks with the sharp edge of the blade (slashes),
attacks with the flat of the blade (strikes), and attacks with the point of the
blade (thrusts).
The Old style endured the longest in England. This is due, in part, to
two factors that influenced the English strongly in the art of sword fighting:
a book and a law. In 1599, a mercenary named George Silver wrote and published
a book on sword fighting entitled Paradoxes of Defense. This book is a tirade
against the rapier and foreign styles. It must have been well received by its
audience since prior to this book's publication a law was written limiting the
length of rapiers that were allowed on English soil. There is a case of a
foreign diplomat running afoul of this law and having his blades broken to the
proper length by the English authorities. Yet we cannot condemn the English for
being non progressive as there were foreign fencing schools and masters teaching
the other styles to any Englishman willing to learn.
The Spanish style was probably the first solid fencing style to develop
from the Old style. Built upon medieval sword fighting techniques, it relied
heavily upon almost full arm extension and footwork to keep the opponent at a
set distance. The weapons utilized by the Spanish style were the long sword and
the rapier. The style used no defensive tools; a single blade served as both
offense and defense. It depended upon quick movements and used both the slash
and the thrust as attacks. The slash was the stronger of the two attacks due to
the distance kept between opponents.
The Spanish style has been described as "a complicated and mystical
affair" due to its extensive use of geometry and its complicated "circle of
defense" referenced by a French student of the style named Thibault. It is
believed that the Spanish style developed from the teachings of alchemy that
stressed perfection of the human form in all things. The difficulty in
mastering the style, combined with the rigid laws and customs regarding dueling
in Spain, meant that sword fighting did not become as popular in Spain as it did
in the rest of Europe. Spanish sword masters and Italian merchants brought the
Spanish style of fencing to Italy. The Italians incorporated some of the
elements of the Spanish style into the style that they were developing.
The Italian style developed shortly after the Spanish style. It
concentrated on the physical and mechanical points of swordplay, such as
presenting the smallest possible target to the opponent and always keeping the
tip of the blade pointed at the opponent. The weapons used in this style were
the long sword, the rapier, and the foil, a long and thin blade with a sharp
point and no edge. The defensive items utilized in the Italian style were the
buckler and the baton, a cane like stick held in the off hand and used for
parrying. Additionally, the Italians innovated the art of sword fighting by
introducing the integration of attack and defense in both hands. This
innovation was called Florentine fighting, after the city of its birth. Thus
swordsmen using the Italian style often carried a dagger for use in their off
hand. Some fought with two long blades. This style used two types of attacks:
the thrust and the lunge. The lunge was another invention of the Italians,
although at first it was basically just a running thrust.
The Italian style is the best documented of all of the styles, as
instructional texts still exist written by such masters as DiGrassi, Agrippa,
and Capo Ferro. The Italian style spread throughout Europe and influenced all
of the other styles. The French style developed almost completely out of it.
Additionally, the tenets of the Italian style are also, in a large part, the
basis of modern epee and foil fencing.
The German style was developed in Germany and Eastern Europe (The Holy
Roman Empire) at the same time the Italian style was being developed. Owing its
origins to the Old style, the German style used a viscious system of slashes and
cuts aimed at the upper torso and a box like system of parries. These attacks
and defenses were based upon the moves that a man fighting from horseback would
use. The weapons of the German style were long sword and saber. No defensive
items were used in this style, although woodcuts would indicate that a secondary
weapon, a sword or a dagger, was sometimes used. The style utilized three types
of attacks: the slash, the strike, and the cut, a fast attack somewhere between
a shallow thrust and a short slash.
Numerous German fencing texts from the period still exist. The style
influenced cavalry fighting and sword fighting in warfare, such as it was in the
period, throughout Europe. Much like the Spanish style, the German style
emphasized keeping the opponent at a set distance. The style was spread across
Europe by the landsneckt mercenaries. Finally, the modern techniques for saber
fighting owe their beginnings to the German style.
The French style was the last to develop and was truly a synthesis of the
best the other styles had to offer. This style stressed the use of strategy and
thinking in combat to make every factor count for you and against your opponent.
The style fully incorporated the Florentine method and combatants used long
swords, foils, and rapiers for weapons. Defensive secondary items could be
nearly anything: a dagger, a buckler, a baton, a cloak, a hat, a mug, a chair,
etc. One of the most common secondaries was the dagger. A long daggers was
developed for this purpose and took on a name of its own: the main gauche or
left hand. The French style had three types of attacks: slashes, thrusts, and
lunges.
In 1573, Henri Sainct Didier published the first book on the art of
swordsmanship ever written in French. He is held by the French to be "father of
their national science of arms", however his work is largely derivative of di
Grassi and other Italian masters. The French style eventually achieved
dominance over the other styles in the late 17th century. Today, it is the
style of sword fighting that people identify with the rapier and The Three
Musketeers. This is largely due to Hollywood of course. However, by the end of
the 17th century, Paris was the home of numerous fencing schools.
By the 18th century fencing had basically begun to devolve into simply a
sport. While duels still occurred in some places, more and more they were being
fought with pistols instead of swords. For nearly all people the five distinct
styles of swordplay that once existed in Europe have degenerated over time into
only a general idea that once people fought with swords. Today, only a very few
talented people keep the noble spirit and active study of classical fencing
alive. In a future article I will describe some period duels as well as try to
give you a feeling of what it is like to cross swords.
Saludos
Un Saludo.
Manuel
"Una bolsa de oro compra el silencio de un hombre durante un tiempo. Una flecha lo compra para siempre". Cancion de Hielo y Fuego.
Manuel
"Una bolsa de oro compra el silencio de un hombre durante un tiempo. Una flecha lo compra para siempre". Cancion de Hielo y Fuego.
-
Iñigo Montoya
- Mensajes: 3
- Registrado: Mié Abr 07, 2004 4:23 pm
- Ubicación: Valencia
Re: articulo ropera
Muchas gracias!
-
Marc Gener
- Madrid
- Mensajes: 1509
- Registrado: Lun Jun 02, 2003 5:44 pm
- Ubicación: Madrid
A ver...
No.
Este artículo de "Lord Simon Fitz Tomas" está cargado de inexactitudes, sobresimplificaciones y conceptos erróneos. Efectivamente existieron varias tradiciones marciales en Europa desde los s. XIV al XX (fechas que abarcan las fuentes literarias que se conocen sobre sistemas individuales de combate), pero de ahí a las generalizaciones y al poco riguroso (por decir algo suave) intento de describir sus supuestas "carácterísticas" de este artículo, hay un auténtico abismo. Menos mal que al menos no ha caído en esa tendencia tan habitual de intentar, encima, pontificar sobre cual de los "estilos" es "mejor"...
Si realmente te interesa el tema, y estás dispuesto a invertir algo de tiempo en leer al respecto, pásate por nuestra página de Enlaces donde encontrarás varios sitios Web (en inglés, me temo) que proporcionan información bastante más fiable sobre el tema.
No.
Este artículo de "Lord Simon Fitz Tomas" está cargado de inexactitudes, sobresimplificaciones y conceptos erróneos. Efectivamente existieron varias tradiciones marciales en Europa desde los s. XIV al XX (fechas que abarcan las fuentes literarias que se conocen sobre sistemas individuales de combate), pero de ahí a las generalizaciones y al poco riguroso (por decir algo suave) intento de describir sus supuestas "carácterísticas" de este artículo, hay un auténtico abismo. Menos mal que al menos no ha caído en esa tendencia tan habitual de intentar, encima, pontificar sobre cual de los "estilos" es "mejor"...
Si realmente te interesa el tema, y estás dispuesto a invertir algo de tiempo en leer al respecto, pásate por nuestra página de Enlaces donde encontrarás varios sitios Web (en inglés, me temo) que proporcionan información bastante más fiable sobre el tema.
Marc
"Living and trying to learn"
--------------------------------------------------
"...si com l'arnès d'acer a colp s'engruna
e lo de ferr hun petit colp lo passa,
quan són units no-ls destru res llur massa..."
"Living and trying to learn"
--------------------------------------------------
"...si com l'arnès d'acer a colp s'engruna
e lo de ferr hun petit colp lo passa,
quan són units no-ls destru res llur massa..."
-
Manuel Turrado
- Mensajes: 296
- Registrado: Lun May 10, 2004 7:30 pm
- Ubicación: Sevilla. España
- Contactar:
Para Marc y demas gente
Para Marc y demas gente.
Siento lo del articulo que postee anteriormente.
Lo encontre hace tiempo y entre que mi ingles no es muy bueno y lo poco que conozco del tema me parecio mams o menos aceptable para conocer algo sobre el tema.
Si especificamente hay algo como este articulo lo buscare porque me interesa el tema.
Gracias por las aclaraciones.
Un sauldo
Siento lo del articulo que postee anteriormente.
Lo encontre hace tiempo y entre que mi ingles no es muy bueno y lo poco que conozco del tema me parecio mams o menos aceptable para conocer algo sobre el tema.
Si especificamente hay algo como este articulo lo buscare porque me interesa el tema.
Gracias por las aclaraciones.
Un sauldo
Un Saludo.
Manuel
"Una bolsa de oro compra el silencio de un hombre durante un tiempo. Una flecha lo compra para siempre". Cancion de Hielo y Fuego.
Manuel
"Una bolsa de oro compra el silencio de un hombre durante un tiempo. Una flecha lo compra para siempre". Cancion de Hielo y Fuego.
-
Invitado
Re: Para Marc y demas gente
Gracias a todos en cualquier caso. Ya soy un verdadero adicto a este foro.
Saludos.
Saludos.
-
anaevjosem
- Mensajes: 168
- Registrado: Lun Ene 12, 2004 4:41 pm
- Ubicación: San Lorenzo del Escorial (Mad)
Hola
No soy capaz de encontrar el hilo/tema en el que se discutía cuándo aparecía la espada ropera con guarda de taza. Supongo que sabréis que en el Escorial hay una pintura de Felipe IV siendo niño en la que porta una estupenda espada de este tipo. Se puede fechar entre 1615-1620
No soy capaz de encontrar el hilo/tema en el que se discutía cuándo aparecía la espada ropera con guarda de taza. Supongo que sabréis que en el Escorial hay una pintura de Felipe IV siendo niño en la que porta una estupenda espada de este tipo. Se puede fechar entre 1615-1620
Jose Manuel Rodriguez Garcia
-
Alberto Bomprezzi
- Madrid
- Mensajes: 1626
- Registrado: Dom May 25, 2003 10:06 am
- Ubicación: Tres Cantos (Madrid)
Si no recuerdo mal la taza no se ve con claridad en el cuadro que mencionas. En cuanto a los tratados que es con lo que más trabajo no he encontrado ninguna iliustración de esgrimistas anterior a mediados del XVII que muestren espadas de taza, ni en la escuela española ni en la italiana. En cambo resultan muy habituales en los tratados de mediados hasta finales del XVII, en ambas escuelas. Por eso tiendo a pensar que la taza no aparece antes de mediados del XVII en que debió popularizarse mucho, por lo menos si nos atenemos a las ilustraciones de los tratados, que muestran preponderantemente este tipo de guarnición. Y no creas que no me gustaría creer que se usaba con anterioridad pero de momento no lo veo claro.
Un saludo
Alberto
Un saludo
Alberto
"La espada es la luz con que sale al mundo el corazón, y aunque tu le des lecciones de amor tiernas y acabadas, no ha de mover corazones hombre que no mueva espadas"
-
anaevjosem
- Mensajes: 168
- Registrado: Lun Ene 12, 2004 4:41 pm
- Ubicación: San Lorenzo del Escorial (Mad)
-
Alberto Bomprezzi
- Madrid
- Mensajes: 1626
- Registrado: Dom May 25, 2003 10:06 am
- Ubicación: Tres Cantos (Madrid)
-
anaevjosem
- Mensajes: 168
- Registrado: Lun Ene 12, 2004 4:41 pm
- Ubicación: San Lorenzo del Escorial (Mad)
Sï, no me puedo quejar de sitio...
COnfirmado. La espada que porta Felipe IV es de tipo taza. La única duda es si la decoración de filigrana que presenta se encuentra sobre la taza o está imbricada (es decir es una taza con decoracion de vaciado). Si no podeis acercaros hasta el monasterio hay una estupenda foto en la nueva guía grande del monasterio, la que tiene muchas fotos. En una de ella se muestra el cuadro pintado por Bartolomé González fechado en 1612. Repito, a mi entender hay pocas dudas al respecto, pero haceros con esa foto en la que creo que se puede ver bastante bien.
Un saludo
COnfirmado. La espada que porta Felipe IV es de tipo taza. La única duda es si la decoración de filigrana que presenta se encuentra sobre la taza o está imbricada (es decir es una taza con decoracion de vaciado). Si no podeis acercaros hasta el monasterio hay una estupenda foto en la nueva guía grande del monasterio, la que tiene muchas fotos. En una de ella se muestra el cuadro pintado por Bartolomé González fechado en 1612. Repito, a mi entender hay pocas dudas al respecto, pero haceros con esa foto en la que creo que se puede ver bastante bien.
Un saludo
Jose Manuel Rodriguez Garcia
-
Juan J. Pérez
- Barcelona
- Mensajes: 2862
- Registrado: Lun Jun 09, 2003 9:27 am
- Contactar:
Es un dato de mucho valor, si se cumplen dos cosas:
- Que la taza no ha sido repintada (a priori no hay porqué pensar en ello, ya que ese tipo de repintados suelen ser bastante evidentes),
- Que el fechado del cuadro es correcto, lo que dado el personaje no parece complicado.
Yo soy de los que abogan por una aparición temprana de la taza, y la aproximación de Norman (hacia 1630) me parecía correcta. El cita un cuadro de Felipe IV (ya un joven) por Velazquez c. 1625, que está en un museo del exterior (norteamericano, creo, dato que debo confirmar) cuya referencia el usa para datar el origen de estas guarniciones.
De este modo podemos manejar la fecha de 1612 como primera aparición de la taza. Podría ser...
JdB
- Que la taza no ha sido repintada (a priori no hay porqué pensar en ello, ya que ese tipo de repintados suelen ser bastante evidentes),
- Que el fechado del cuadro es correcto, lo que dado el personaje no parece complicado.
Yo soy de los que abogan por una aparición temprana de la taza, y la aproximación de Norman (hacia 1630) me parecía correcta. El cita un cuadro de Felipe IV (ya un joven) por Velazquez c. 1625, que está en un museo del exterior (norteamericano, creo, dato que debo confirmar) cuya referencia el usa para datar el origen de estas guarniciones.
De este modo podemos manejar la fecha de 1612 como primera aparición de la taza. Podría ser...
JdB
-
JRamos-midelburgo
- Mensajes: 1157
- Registrado: Mar Jul 08, 2003 12:52 pm
- Ubicación: En la ribera del Gállego
Quedaria asegurarse que el cuadro no ha sido "retocado" en epocas posteriores. El retrato mas famoso de Menendez de Aviles (muerto en 1574) y supuestamente del XVI luce tambien una preciosa taza de 1650 (creo que en otro post dije que se trataba dl coronel Verdugo). Tambien hay un retrato de un Marques del Valle, nieto de Cortes con parecido arreglo.anaevjosem escribió:COnfirmado. La espada que porta Felipe IV es de tipo taza. La única duda es si la decoración de filigrana que presenta se encuentra sobre la taza o está imbricada (es decir es una taza con decoracion de vaciado)
mdlbrq
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